Patrick Keenan-Devlin on Inside the Skev Transcript

Aaron Masliansky (00:06):

Welcome to Inside the Skev. And I'm your host today. I am delighted to have Patrick Keenan-Devlin, and he is from the Moran Center, which is in Evanston. And they do some great work to help with people mainly teens, but we're going to talk about it and talk about restorative justice and what that meansand why they started. So Patrick, thank you so much for being on the show.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (00:30):

Well, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Aaron Masliansky (00:33):

My pleasure. So why don't you tell us a little bit about what the Moran center does?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (00:38):

Sure. So I always like to start when I talk about the Moran Center about its history, it started in 1976 but its founding story really goes back to the death of a young 19 year old in our community. His name was John Cox. He had a two year old son who was unresponsive. One evening. He, I proceeded to give him CPR chest compressions without, yeah, receiving a response from his child calls nine, 11, nine, 11 response to the scene and the child was pronounced dead at the scene. His father, John is arrested for murder. He's held in custody for days without counsel, without contact with, with his family and ultimately attempt suicide in Evanston jail cell. He's then brought to Evanston hospital in a coma. Evanston hospital lies to his family and says you can't afford our medical bills. So then transfers convinces the family to transfer him in a coma to the cook County hospital.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (01:47):

Cook County hospital welcomed him with open arms and having a gurney set up to take him right out the back door to the County jail hospital. So after his third transfer, he died at the time alderman Moran was on the city council and investigated with Northwestern university police hospital the County, the public defender's office, and ultimately found that there was a equity gap, a justice gap in our community, and that he found about $23,000 in the city budget to start a community based defense organization. So that's the, that's the core of what we do is we represent children and young adults up to the age of 26 in criminal and juvenile delinquency proceedings from jail side, the litigation. But ultimate Moran and then Jimmy Carter later appointed him to the bench. So judge Moran, really believed that as lawyers we needed to have a holistic approach to counseling.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (02:50):

And so from the very founding of our organization, we always had social workers working right alongside us because nobody who enters into the justice system enters in a without trauma and without typically complex challenges that they're confronting. And so we've always partnered with social workers. It's the core of what we do. And then everything else that we do really is tied back to that. So we have for example, an education advocacy program where we as lawyers advocate for kids in school discipline proceedings and special education proceedings because we feel that kids can succeed in school. Then we've broken down that school to prison pipeline. So it prevention the prevention tool. We then have a school based civil legal clinic and the thought there is, if we can help families stabilize by avoiding evictions, by securing public benefits, by appealing public benefit denials, if we can provide that type of stabilization, families will not be ostracized by our community.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (03:52):

They will not be entered into broken institutions like our criminal justice system. And they can stay here where, where we want them to be. So everything kind of ties back to how can we break down pipelines, the school too, prison pipeline, the poverty to prison pipeline, the poverty to institutionalization pipeline to support families and children and young adults. So that's the core of what we do. How many people do you typically work with every year? So we typically work with about 1400 kids and youth and families every year. That number keeps rising every year. One of our signature programs, which I failed to talk about, is our expungement and sealing help desk, which we operate every Tuesday and Thursday from 10 to noon at the Skokie courthouse. And the core of that work is to help people who have criminal backgrounds or mediate their criminal records.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (04:52):

And right now in this moment in our country and our world, that's going to be even more critical. We have the highest unemployment rates since the great depression. And that misdemeanor conviction that you received maybe 20 years ago, it didn't hold you back from securing employment when you got that last job 10 years ago, five years ago. But in today's market where it will be probably the most competitive job market in the history of our country, that record will really mean the difference between you getting a job and you not getting a job. So at that help desk, we help about 850 people per year clear their criminal backgrounds. And, and it's like, it's adults that we help at that help desk, but almost every adult is connected to a child. And so it's still very mission focused that our work is about helping adults and families because if we help adults and families, we're there by helping children. Right now, you said that the help desk is actually inside the Skokie courthouse inside the Skokie courthouse, right outside the clerk's office.

Aaron Masliansky (05:58):

So how are you operating now and you know, do people have to communicate with you over Zoom or something like that?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (06:02):

It's a great question. So the courts are closed and they've been closed since March 16th. And what we've done is we've built out our website to have more information about expungement and ceilings. So it's Moran-center.org/expungement. You can go on that webpage and learn more about expungement and sealing process in cook County and the state of Illinois. But we've also partnered with

Aaron Masliansky (06:29):

I think I'll show you, I could share the screen, which is so cool about zoom. So why don't we show everybody that you're listening on audio, you know, watch the video. So, so you're, you're on the website right here and you said it. Where can we go to find this?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (06:47):

So you can either just do backslash expungement or if you go to how we can help. Under that tab is expungement, ceiling help desk. And right there are tons of brochures and information about the expungement and sealing process in cook County. And in Illinois we have all the information in Spanish as well. That's great. But what I was going to say is that we have also like many industries had to rethink how we serve people given that we're not able to connect face to face. And that's a real challenge in the judicial system. We were about 20, 30 years behind most industries. I mean prior to the pandemic I was still filing carbon copy motions in the circuit court of cook County. So we have a long way to go in terms of modernizing. But what we've done at the Moran center, there's an amazing organization in Illinois called the Illinois legal aid online and it is a website that is really consumer focused to help consumers navigate complex legal issues.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (07:56):

And as a partner with Lao, we can ah, answer people's questions through that platform. We can do online intakes through that platform. And then this crisis has prompted Clerk Dorothy Brown to open up for criminal and traffic database online. So it's registered attorneys can now access people's records online. Whereas before the crisis, we actually had to physically be in the courthouse to look up a person's record. So now we can do an intake online, we can advise people online and we can even look up people's record online and start the petitioning process. Now the issue is though we have to wait for the courts to reopen to file the petition, but we can get a lot of work done in the meantime. So as to grease the wheels from when the courts actually do impact reopen.

Aaron Masliansky (08:42):

Does it frustrate you at all that it took a pandemic to be able to modernize where people can at least, you know, you can check this stuff online. I mean, I know in my industry I'm in real estate, you know, a lot of things that people wouldn't do before because for whatever reason or even the mental health, you, you couldn't do telehealth because your insurance would cover it. But now all of a sudden everything's okay. What gives?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (09:06):

I do think in the judicial system, we are the leaders of our digital system, overly cautious. And I think it's understandable as to why. Yeah, you know, for example, in the criminal courts we have the courts have transitioned to zoom here and for efficiency purposes. I can appreciate that, particularly in a pandemic, but when a person's liberty is at stake, that that is a person to person hearing and, and I truly believe should always be a person to person hearing. I think you lose a lot when, when it is put online. I think. And I also think there are questions of confidentiality that are at play that are not as easily resolved on an online platform. But circling back to your, your, your point, I do think that there are, there will be many silver linings to the pandemic and one is that it has forced the hand of many leaders in our country and our state and our region to rethink how they do things. And, and one way is that lawyers now have access to the criminal and traffic database, which I expect will be ongoing access that we have after the pandemic proceeds. But I mean, I have to throw myself into that bucket too. I mean there are ways that we're delivering services that I never thought we would have been able to prior to the pandemic, but I'm very proud that the pandemic has compelled us to be creative, be innovative.

Aaron Masliansky (10:36):

Yeah. That's what it's done. It's made people be very creative to be able to accomplish what they need to. One of the things though that there is, you know, especially in your line of work, there can be a digital divide and people may not have access to the technology that's needed in order to be able to communicate with you. So if you've been working with any organizations to try to get Chromebooks or anything like that, I know like in the district for the school district or working to get people technology,

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (11:05):

Right. So we are really grateful to both District 202 and District 65 that they have unbelievably quickly dispersed technology, wifi hotspots, Chromebooks to their client, to their students and to their families. And that's actually allowed us to keep in contact with our clients. It's allowed the school districts to implement e-learning fairly quickly. It has also allowed the district to comply with federal law. So the us department of education and the Illinois state board of education has been very clear to school districts locally and nationally that they are to comply with Ida requirements. So the individuals with disabilities education act. So if you have a, with a disability, there are strict timelines for when meetings need to be held, evaluations need to be conducted, annual reviews need to be done. And the schools are still bound by those timelines. And, and most of those things require meetings, meetings with parents.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (12:12):

And we've had to walk our parents through our families through how to access online platforms to participate in those meetings, how to participate in those meetings. But the districts, both the districts have really been incredible at thinking through how to provide access to families in our community. I mean, the challenge though is access is one thing. But you know, right before this conference call Aaron, I was doing kindergarten lessons with my five-year-old and that's because I have the unbelievable privilege of one being my own boss. But to having the flexibility provided by my organization to do that I am an extremely privileged individual. There are so many families in our community that don't have that luxury or if you're an essential worker you certainly don't have that luxury. And so I think one, one concern that the Moran center has is not only the digital divide but the privileged divide and that the achievement gap that we've experienced in this country and certainly in our community for decades, if not centuries. I think we'll really be exacerbated by this crisis. And, and it's going to be a coven 19 learning loss, but it's going to be felt much more within communities that have already been disinvested by this country.

Aaron Masliansky (13:35):

Well, absolutely. And I think that the people that are working at grocery stores, meat, packing plants, whatever it may be, are predominantly people who have been disadvantaged. And you know, if people get sick, their whole families get sick or people don't want to hire people coming into their homes, let's say cleaning services or whatnot. And you know, all different types of service workers. I think that that could potentially exacerbate issues and you know, create the propensity for more crime. So it's, it's incredibly important to try to figure out how to bridge this. I, it's, it's a huge task that you have on your hands and it's almost like your, your organization. It has become so much more important within the past month and a half.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (14:23):

I think that's right. You know, for some reason. So I was a history major and so for some reason, I'm constantly thinking back to president Johnson's war on poverty. And when the president rolled out the war on poverty, he ensured that on the front lines of that more we're lawyers. Hmm. And it was fairly innovative at the time, led by Sergeant Shriver that lawyers were an integral part to fighting poverty. And this nation will recede into a great depression as, as predicted by economist across this country. And it will be lawyers on the front lines alongside healthcare workers and homeless prevention stabilization organizations that lead the effort to rebuilding this country to ensure that disinvested families and children getting access to the public benefits that they're due under the law. That if they are denied, they have the access to appeal, that their rights within our educational system are preserved. That liberties within our judicial system are, are protected. It really will be lawyers that will be fighting on behalf of families that have been just unbelievably broken by, by this pandemic. Yeah. It's happy.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (15:45):

Yeah. What led you though to, to get into, into this line of work? Were you always an attorney fighting for for people who, who you help now or did you start somewhere else? When I graduated from law school, excuse me, when I graduated from undergrad, I had an unbelievable opportunity. I was an AmeriCorps Vista which is part of the AmeriCorps program, volunteers in service to America. And I served for one year at the Sargent Shriver national center on poverty law. Maybe that's why I feel so rooted in the war on poverty because the roots of that organization are, are in the war on poverty. And I did policy work at the Shriver center, particularly in Medicaid policy. My next job was in Springfield. I was an advocate on behalf of consumers working on predatory lending reforms, campaign finance reforms, et cetera. And then that work in Springfield compelled me to go to law school because in Springfield, the people who were really leading the policy discussions were lawyers.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (16:53):

So I always intended to go back into consumer rights. And then I stumbled on the Moran center during law school and the executive director at the time recruited me to come work for the Moran center one summer as a law clerk because she said, I think you'll really enjoy working for children and young people. And she was right. I loved it. And thankfully when I graduated, there was a job opening. And so I took the job and it was about eight years ago. And then about four years ago I became the executive director of the red center. So I, I've always been in the antipoverty movement in our country. And, and I do see the work of the Moran center as part, as part of that larger movement. But particularly our job is to dismantle these in pipelines of injustice that are just so entrenched within our country and our community.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (17:47):

Do you think it's possible though to fully accomplish that? Yes, I do. Hmm. It is incredible that Congress in the past month, month, month, and a half has invested $2.1 trillion back into the economy. They can no longer say that they cannot find the money to end homelessness. They can no longer say that they can't find the money to provide universal healthcare. They, they, they, they have lost the ability to say that because in few days they somehow found two point $1 trillion and they keep on finding trillions of dollars to pump back into the economy. So, yeah, I do think it is possible. You know, I, I know last week, maybe a week before you, you interviewed [inaudible] from what that organization has done with smart investments and, and investments from state, federal and local levels and individual donors. They've ended homelessness in our community.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (18:54):

And, and it's incredible. I mean, it really is. It's incredible. And, but what we have to do and what right in supporting organizations like connections for the homeless is making sure that it's not just short term. You know, how horrible would it be that we end homelessness in Evanston for a month and then we let it go back to where it was before. That's what I want to be ashamed and I think a moral wrong and, and so I'm really excited, but we found $2.1 trillion in the federal budget. I think it is. I think it is possible. I really do.

Aaron Masliansky (19:30):

What are the, what do you think about, you know, being a history especially in this line? Why didn't the war on poverty end poverty? I mean Johnson spent a lot of money at that time too, to try to reinvest into trying to fix these problems.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (19:51):

There's a lot of political reasons why the property did not accomplish its intended goal. But look, it accomplished a lot of its goals. I mean, strengthened social security. We got Medicaid, Medicaid and Medicare. We, we got the legal services corporation, peace Corps, AmeriCorps. I mean, so much of our social safety net is owed to that war on poverty, but we can't stop there. And Johnson, when he rolled out the war on poverty, they had a vision for universal healthcare and he couldn't achieve it. And so we got Medicare. I mean, do not to quote Senator Kennedy, do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Mmm, we can, we can keep making progress. I think the affordable care act is an example of progress that we've made in this country, but, but we can still go further.

Aaron Masliansky (20:47):

Do you think it's, I mean, we also talk about, you know, you're saying how we were able to spend $2.1 Trillion in the blink of an eye. Really. and Andrew Yang was talking a lot about when he was campaigning about universal basic income and

Aaron Masliansky (21:02):

You know, now, okay, so every family has gotten money from the government. We're talking about potentially it being on a monthly basis. Jan Schakowsky was talking about, I mean, it's incredible how things can change, how, how change is so fast nowadays, right? Yeah. I mean, will that help?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (21:27):

Well, to quote Rahm Emanuel, who I rarely quote, never let a crisis go to waste. I mean, I think that this is an opportunity for those of us who have been on the front lines of ending poverty and fighting poverty and Mmm. Creating innovative, inventive solutions, policy solutions to the table. Like our Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky, this is the time to act. This is a time to be bold. Mmm. Again, our Congress in a blink of an eye invested $2.1 Trillion in our country. So this is a time to say, look, you can find $2.1 Trillion. You can fund universal healthcare, you can fund food security for this country. You can then require and set you know, basic standards for industry as to what a living,

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (22:17):

We=age is, we can do this as a country.

Aaron Masliansky (22:19):

Yeah. And we can, and then, you know, you talk about restorative justice. What does that mean? Restorative justice? Is that everything that you're doing with social workers and you know, all everything together?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (22:34):

It's a great question. So restorative justice is a new pillar of the Moran Center's services. And we started the Roger Pascal Restorative Justice Initiative named after one of our founding board members about two years ago. And I, and I came to restorative justice through an organization in Back of the Yards called Precious Blood Ministries. And I was really taken by the concept and the principles, which are fairly basic. You know, it's, it's that you are if you are a person who believes in restorative practices and principles and values, you are radically welcoming individual. You were radically hospitable, that you are

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (23:18):

Willing to listen

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (23:20):

And potentially radically forgive. [inaudible] In learning about the practices and principles, I realize this is what's missing within the Moran Center's scope of programming. You know, we,

Aaron Masliansky (23:34):

We are constantly in crisis mode,

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (23:38):

Right? Ensuring that kids are getting what they need in school, ensuring that children are not locked up. Making sure that families aren't tonight food stamps making sure businesses are hiring people with criminal records. We're, we're constantly plugging holes in the dam. And what restorative justice does and forces you to do is look at systems and say, how can we as a society, as a community address problems more holistically, Mmm. More radically and, and really focus on what harm is being caused and how can we repair the harm and its roots are in victim offender mediation, right? You punched me. We sit down in a circle and we mediate that, that harm that you caused an eyes of the victim get to say to you, Aaron, this is what I need to be made whole. But you can quickly see that that type of conversation can be held at a systems level.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (24:40):

And so the thought is if we can build not only personal one-to-one relationships in our community, like with you and me, Aaron, that is restorative and that's just rooted in these principles that we can do the same in our schools and our hospitals and our government. So I'll give you a quick example. We worked with the city over the past two years to codify into city code a whole bunch of misdemeanors and you might go, why would a organization that is justice oriented one to codify, you know, crimes in the city code. Well this was the idea. Yeah. We want it to give officer's another tool in their toolbox to instead of arresting people to be able to cite them as to pull them out of the circuit court of cook County and keep them here at home and hopefully address the harm in a less punitive way.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (25:35):

So for adults, let's say you committed retail theft in downtown Evanston, a police officer could cite you for that offense and you as an adult would go to the civic center, the Lorraine Morton Civic Center, and your case will be adjudicated there. So you wouldn't have an arrest, you wouldn't have a criminal conviction, you wouldn't have anything that you would need to expunge, wouldn't appear on your permanent background. Now let's say Aaron, you were 16 years old and you were arrested for the same crime. You also go to the civic center. But instead of being adjudicated, you actually enter into a restorative process where social workers from the city meet with you as a kid and your family and attempt to figure out what it is you need. What, why did you do that? And what can you do to make up for it to repair that harm?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (26:27):

And what can we do as a community? Cause we've obviously failed you in some way, shape or form. So what can we do to help you? And if you meet all of the terms of that repair of harm agreement is what it's called, nothing happens. There's no fine. There's fee. There's no, yeah, ridiculous. Usually ancillary community service hours. It's really about meaningful a repair. So that's just one way the Moran Center's worked to build restorative justice within government and the police department. I have two questions to follow up with you on that. One is why aren't we doing that for adults as well? And the second is, what if it's a violent crime? Yes. So violent crimes are, we were successful in codifying two violent violent crimes. One is a battery and one is an assault. There are misdemeanor offenses. We have not removed discretion from police officers though.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (27:24):

So it's really still on police officers to make the determination whether this is an offense that is meriting Mmm. You know, a second chance. And, and having that off ramp to the civic center as opposed to, again, in the circuit court of cook County. So discretion is still within the within the hands of the officer that responds to the incident. In terms of why can't we do this for adults? I really hope we can, but I, I think that it was an easier sell to say let's start with kids, let's, let's show that it works. First and foremost, and then my goal and everyone is sitting knows that this is my goal. So I'm not sharing any secret is to then raise the, the, the age from 18 to 26, which has been proven to be actually the, the point of maturation. Let's do that. And then if that's successful, my hope is to raise it to 96. So that's the, that's the ultimate 97. You're screwed. Yes. Sorry, you shouldn't be committing retail theft at 97.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (28:30):

Give him a pass at that point, I think. I hope. I really do. They've done your part in life. So you've got, you've got a lot going on here. How do you, how many people do you have working for you? Cause it sounds like your 1400 people that you pump through your doors every year. So that's, that's a lot of work. We have 16 staff. I know this off the top of my head cause I submitted a grant yesterday. We have it, it comes to 13.2 to five full time equivalent employees that that works tirelessly. We have six attorneys including myself. And then the rest includes social workers, three social workers, administrative staff and development professionals. Good. Really are critical to keeping the lights on so that that's the full makeup of the Moran Center.

Aaron Masliansky (29:21):

Are you guys hiring right now? I mean, or no?

New Speaker (29:27):

It will be an extremely tight budget next year.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (29:30):

And what I have said to our philanthropic partners and our donors [inaudible] my hope is to really toe towed the line and tow our expenses and keep them line and in check. So as we can keep everybody on staff I don't expect us to be able to grow next year, potentially even in the coming years. But I think it is critical that we maintain staff that we have now because inevitably when the courts reopened, we will be inundated. Bye. Demand the the, the governor's eviction order will be Mmm. Lifted. Oh yeah. At the end of this month. So landlords who have been itching to file eviction petitions will be allowed to do so. So there'll be a deluge of eviction complaints that we'll be entering into the circuit queries. People who have applied for unemployment benefits right about now are probably receiving either their acceptance or denial. So those denial applicants, those denied applicants will need representation, the administrative and potentially at the court level. So I'm just expecting all of the challenges, legal challenges that we have heard about in the news, and that we can just infer from, from walking on the streets of our community and in our country that these will be the issues that people will be facing. And they'll need lawyers.

Aaron Masliansky (30:52):

No, they will. It's scary to think about all the evictions and then, you know, possible foreclosures and things like that. We kind of hope people can get to work. I really do. But it's scary because we don't have a vaccine yet.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (31:05):

That's right. That's right. And I'll just plug, you know, I love connections for the homeless. They, they have, they've done such an unbelievable job in caring for our community and housing those who are really, really vulnerable right now, including many of my clients and many of my families. And one of the, one of the advocacy points that connections is focusing on is there's a bill in Springfield that gives consumers some level of forgiveness as to rent and mortgage payments. I know that negotiations are ongoing as to what will make it into the final bills. So it's unclear as to what will make it in the final bill. But I would keep your eye on connections for the homeless, a advocacy page for what consumers can do to advocate in Springfield.

Aaron Masliansky (31:52):

Yeah, they are doing amazing work. When I saw that they got everybody off the streets and in Evanston, I said, I got to get ahold of them. And I saw Neo was quoted in an article. I immediately reached out to her and they, I mean, it's just, it's amazing what you can do when you have to. And just, and I think the donors who support these organizations, your organization relies on donors, is that correct?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (32:20):

Yes, sir.

Aaron Masliansky (32:21):

So how can people support you guys? I mean, it's on the website where they can donate.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (32:26):

Yes. So we have a donate link top right hand corner, and also when you're showing everybody our website, you'll actually see a teal banner on the, there it is. We actually have a virtual event coming up on May 21st. It's a Thursday evening at seven 30. We had like everybody plan for an in person event, but we are going virtual. I also feel incredibly, incredibly fortunate, Aaron, about our honorees for this year because they are very used to operating in a virtual world. So Ear Hustle, which is a podcast that is produced from San Quentin president prison, that really talks about and gives voice to men who are incarcerated in San Quentin, will be our honorees this year. And then Jen White of WBEZ, we'll be interviewing NIGEL POOR AND EARLONNE WOODS OF EAR HUSTLE from Ear Hustle. This is actually a big week also for both your hustle and Jen White. Ear Hustle was named as a finalist for the Pulitzer prize and then Jen White was just announced, was just named as the nationally syndicated host of 1A in Washington DC so they both had huge weeks. So I think it makes this event even more exciting for people to participate in.

Aaron Masliansky (33:49):

You guys got incredible people that have as part of this. That's amazing. I got to sign up.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (33:55):

Yes, we, and we had a lot of dumb luck this year, so.

Aaron Masliansky (33:58):

No kidding.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (33:59):

Very, very, very grateful, very grateful that.

Aaron Masliansky (34:01):

At least we had some good things happen. And then the donate button is right up here. Easy to get to. And you know, you have a, you know, matching gifts right now. So if you can please, please help Moran Center two, continue to support the work that you're doing. I mean, it's incredible. Do you feel you're welcome? You know, you've got such a background and you're doing such great work. Do you have do you think that you're doing as like affecting the world in such an incredible way? Or do you have other aspirations for, you know, you have a great background for politics?

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (34:41):

Well, I, I know this is not, this is not about me, but I will say that the Moran center, so our Restorative Justice Coordinator, Pam Cytrynbaum every week does circles at connections for the homeless. Because that staff really needs to be made whole more, probably more so than anybody, right? What trauma they're experiencing witnessing. Ah, and what Pam has walked away after what she's walked away from, the main takeaway she's walked away from those circles is that every frontline provider, every social service provider that she comes in contact with at connections, it says, I'm not doing enough. I want to do more. I, you know, I need to be doing more. And I think that's a universal truth. I think as a universe, it's certainly a universal truth for me. It's a universal truth for my staff. When I sit in circle with my staff, everybody always complains themselves and how they're not doing enough. And I think that is a sign of, of a helper is that helpers feel that they are never doing so. But I actually think that is somewhat true that the Moran Center can always be too, we can, all of us can always be doing more because there's always more. Yeah. There is always more to do. The work never, never, never goes away. It never goes away. It never goes away. But I, I think that you guys are doing incredible things and I wish that we didn't need you. I wish we did.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (36:13):

I say that all the time. If, if, yeah. An organization is a nonprofit organization is in this work simply to keep itself afloat, then it's really missing the Mark. I mean, every nonprofit should have a goal of getting out of business. Hmm. And the prevention work that we do you know, our school based civil legal clinic or education advocacy program and even the reentry work that we focus on with our expungement ceiling help desk, that is all there. So as we can get out of business and, and, and, and tied to that, if my hope is that Marine center can be more engaged in policy work too in the coming years because often policymakers and policy advocates are removed from frontline service. And I think we have the advantage of being able to say, well, I saw this up close, I saw this injustice up close and it can be fixed by just changing that semi colon.

Patrick Keenan-Devlin (37:13):

Right? I mean, sometimes policy can be that easy. Now the lift is always hard. Mmm. But I, I really do think that the Moran center has its focus in the right place. That it is about getting out business altogether. Yeah. No, I think it's great. And the work that you could do with the schools and you know, changing how things are, how discipline works even there, I know that is a key to getting everybody to change how they feel and how they, how they self evaluate themselves. And when people constantly think that they're the bad kid it becomes, the prophecy becomes reality. So I think that it's so helpful to do this work and to continue to change the way we think. Yeah. Well, I'll just end by saying it sounds like we're landing that plane. I'll just say that a core principle that Marine center has no child is bad. All children want to do well. All children want to please. And if a child does fail, it's okay. Our fault. It's the adult's fault. It's the system's fault. It's society's fault. And as lawyers, social workers and believers in restorative justice I, I really do hope we get to change the narrative in our country about children and families. That is a great message. So let's hope that we can do that and everyone just to,

Aaron Masliansky (38:36):

To learn more. Go to moran-center.org and Patrick, thank you so much for being on the show. We appreciate it and continue doing what you're doing.

New Speaker (38:45):

Thanks, Aaron. You're welcome.